Mr Technique wrote:Zeuhl is a distinct genre, but RIO is not really a genre at all. I mean we kind of know what someone means when they say something sounds like RIO, but the actual collective was pretty diverse and linked by political views and a general anti-commercial stance to music. We use avant-prog to describe bands descended from one or more of the core RIO bands, and, again, we pretty much know what someone means when they use that term, but it can still be pretty diverse. I am considering changing the title of the thread to include avant prog.
Well, you're 100% right but I'm still going to quibble with you anyway
While Zeuhl is a distinct genre and RIO more like a diverse collection of the like-minded, both are stable terms that can be defined pretty objectively (as objectively as you can define music genres and categories, anyway). Avant prog, OTOH, is an unhelpfully squishy term (a retronym coined by ProgArchives for older music) that only merits use because of its currency, like "jazz fusion."
Firstly, it's redundant at face value. "Progressive" and "avant garde" mean essentially the same thing (check the etymology); the difference is only one of degree. While not all progressive music is avant garde by any means, we should hope that all avant garde music would also be progressive, since "avant retro" or "avant roots" would be incoherent terms (let alone meaningless portmanteaus like "avant goth," a self-description of Kayo Dot which instantly put me off to the band). So avant prog would seem to be music with a mixture of avant garde elements and progressive elements (which are themselves mixtures with straighter music). The problem is instantly apparent: How much of each? That can't be defined in anything but subjective ways. I have my own definition of avant prog which may not jibe with others.
For instance, I think there's a considerable bunch of RIO that I wouldn't call avant prog. Avant prog from my perspective needs either a rock approach to free improvisation, various 20th-century composition techniques such as stark dissonance and convoluted structures, or both. Clearly Sleepytime Gorilla Museum and Art Bears make it into avant prog just for their use of dissonance alone, but does News From Babel? I don't think so. Take away the Tim Hodgkinson clarinet piece
Caucasian Lullaby from the Henry Cow / Slapp Happy record
Desperate Straights, and the rest isn't avant prog at all. I'd also think that most of Samla, Etron Fou, Aqsak Maboul and Stormy Six couldn't be called avant prog, even though the Cow and UZ clearly are. And I'd go so far as to wonder if Miriodor, a band firmly established as RIO from the Quebecois music actuelle scene, was avant prog as opposed to very high-level progrock because of its relentless focus on melody, harmony and progrock song structures.
Can all this be debated? Absolutely. That's precisely why avant prog isn't as useful a term as either Zeuhl or RIO. I'm not really interested in ProgArchives's definition of "avant prog."
I am aware of the Proggy Treats thread and I considered posting there but at the last minute transferred the post to a new thread. There may be some overlap with bands mentioned in passing on that thread. Anyway, I don't want to interrupt all the talk of furniture, chocolate,
You should post your fave 2013 albums in the thread there, though ...
and who is or isn't an asshole
The technical name for that incident is
butthurt. Being a gentleman, of course I deleted my replies, but I have to admit I thought it was kind of funny at the time. And I can say that here confident that I won't ruffle any feathers because since the
Freakazoid Invasion of Cardiacs Alike (kind of like the British Invasion, only by Kobaïans), I don't think the most passionate partakers of chocolate and furniture bother to even read this forum anymore ... *shrug*
Üdü Ẁüdü does have De Futura which is a killer track and a clear influence lot of the modern aggressive Zeuhl, including early Ruins.
It was enormously influential, but it's not anywhere near one of my favorite Magma tunes. I think Jannik Top's a pretty overrated bass player among Magma fans (I prefer Moze and Paganotti, let alone the all-time monster Philippe Bussonnet) and his own Zeuhl outfit,
Infernal Machina, I found to be pretty meh, hot Slavic babes on the grand piano nonwithstanding.
Recent releases from Present are good as well, but Grooveshark lets me down in that regard. Dave Kerman has been their drummer for a while now, dude gets around.
I got the impression from
AllMusic that they started veering off into a minimalist / repetitive direction from their earlier stuff ... and yes, Dave Kerman surely does get around.
Bob
. Slower, less rhythmically intense than a lot of Zeuhl, RIO inflected, and featuring some noisy guitar.
). In it, we talk about Eider Stellaire and Weidorje among others. On the last track now, and the record held up!
And yet he got all comfy with post punk. Heh. Of course, most punk is much more politically righteous than those lamely Labourite proggers.