Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiacs

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Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiacs

Postby schlep » Thu Sep 13, 2012 19:17

(Was this one of those topics that we had in the 'old' Seaside?)

No doubt Blur has heard and liked Cardiacs tunes, Radiohead also, but I never heard much obvious 'influence' there - Cardiacs are such a one-off band.
Anyway I was reminded of this seems-long-ago discussion today, when Mr Torabi weighed in on the topic in a thread on one of those Cardiacs Facebook pages...someone was implying that those famous bands should own up and donate lumps of cash to Tim, in exchange for the inspirado.

(I'm sure he'll appreciate me quoting him out of context here! :? )

"I think one of the problems was a ridiculous and desperate entry in Wikipedia a few years back that had a 30+ list of bands that Cardiacs had 'influenced' including Talking Heads, This Heat and System Of A Down. I'm sure some people would love to believe that this is indeed the case and somehow need more famous groups' approval to justify their love of Tim's extraordinary music. The truth is, very sadly, that most people, particularly outside of Britain, have never heard/heard of the band. This has a great deal to do with Alphabet having no real European or American distribution or PR and very little to do with life being unfair. Radiohead did support Cardiacs early on, though, and were interested in having Tim direct one of their videos around the Pablo Honey time. The important thing is that YOU like them. Everyone here knows Tim's music will be recognised for the beauty that it is IN THE END, it's just that it'll probably be after we are all dead. x"
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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby eadric » Fri Sep 14, 2012 00:07

The list of bands 'claimed' has always been about ten times longer than common sense suggests. Kavus hits the nail on the head - when nobody has heard of you, it's hard to be much of an influence.

I always think of what Tim does as kind of 'unstable', in that it's in between so many other things. There's a few odd time signatures but it's not odd time signature music. There's bits of musical interplay without being that complicated. I can't think of many 'weird' chords, it's strikingly straightforward in that sense. Although I'd argue the later stuff is generally 'simpler' than the earlier (it'd have been interesting to see if having KT around reversed that), there's a consistent Cardiacs sound that didn't become too predictable.

So direct influences... I can't think of many, to be honest. There's bands like umm Ring? Blossom? where they sound like they were listening pretty closely, but I'm struggling to think of anyone big. Suggestions?

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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby schlep » Fri Sep 14, 2012 14:54

eadric wrote:I always think of what Tim does as kind of 'unstable', in that it's in between so many other things. There's a few odd time signatures but it's not odd time signature music. There's bits of musical interplay without being that complicated. I can't think of many 'weird' chords, it's strikingly straightforward in that sense. Although I'd argue the later stuff is generally 'simpler' than the earlier (it'd have been interesting to see if having KT around reversed that), there's a consistent Cardiacs sound that didn't become too predictable.



"Unstable" that's a very good and evocative word to describe!
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Postby dogsetc. » Fri Sep 14, 2012 15:31

I thought so too... far better than 'pronk'. Unstable pop, or malstabila popo as i like to say in Esperanto.

Bravo eadric. :)


By the way, the DJ choices by Stars in Battledress on Steve Davis, reminded me what a gorgeous little piece of music is the Bonzo's Turkeys from their last album. You can add the Bonzos to the Wikipedia List of Implausibles.

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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby Monkton » Sun Sep 16, 2012 13:28

Where you from Eadric? There's fair few that have heard of, let alone would mention Blossom (unless you mean the German Christian Ska punks...?) Anyway's, chap used to post on hear called Mr Flower i think. HE was chap from Blossom. (0494 u kno the score, HW hardcore) Yerself?

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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby Snardbafulator » Thu Oct 03, 2013 09:18

Gee, at the risk of ... interrupting anything on the Nest at the mo, I thought I'd revive this thread because questions of influence, genre and innovation always intrigue my twiddly mind.
eadric wrote:I always think of what Tim does as kind of 'unstable', in that it's in between so many other things.

As others have noted, that's a great description, eadric. I've always thought it was a matter of guys coming of age and beginning to make music during post punk / new wave who took their teenage roots in prog seriously. Which makes Tim's approach hardly some grand, conscious attempt to synthesize punk and prog as he says, but just trying to be true to what he liked.

Since the whole discussion was generated by overenthusiastic Cardiacs fans taking advantage of Wikipedia's inbuilt tendency to enable bullspit, we've got to mention that some of those putative "influenced bys" no doubt are working in areas now that few were when Cardiacs were coming up, still in an age of the major labels, music press and broadcast radio setting the parameters on what does and doesn't make "good rock music." Since all of that basically collapsed with the rise of the internet and satellite radio, there are many bands now who use exotic chord progressions and meters and who see themselves, like Tim, as basically "just tunes" bands and not denizens of some avant prog art ghetto. Major Parkinson for one.

Cardiacs is one of those incredibly rare sui generis entities, but they aren't the only ones who have fallen through the genre cracks. Allan Holdsworth's another one: too rock for jazz, too jazz for rock, "fusion" by default -- but sounds like no other fusion. And while shredmeisters fall out of the woodwork to praise him and claim his influence on their technique, just about nobody -- no, literally nobody -- can play like him (including supremely competent fusion guys) because his harmonic approach is totally unique. Sounding like and playing like are different.
And I'm not just being a hyperbolic fanboy, either. I can cite chapter and verse on this from his own instructional materials -- which contradict everything taught in academic jazz theory.

Captain Beefheart also. How many from the first punks onward rushed in to try to claim him as an influence or at least a major inspiration? But how many artists has anybody heard who sounds like Trout Mask or Decals -- or even his later, somewhat straighter stuff? PJ Harvey (who was supposedly weaned on Beefheart) for a riff or so on Dry, maybe. John French? He played with Beefheart, the guys in Mallard, too, so they don't count. Zappa has lots of directly traceable influenced-by's, but he's a different sort of genius: a genre omnivore. Beefheart, Holdsworth and Cardiacs carved their own, sounds-like-nobody-else-in-creation genre niches.

So sure, there's doubtless a part of all of us who love Cardiacs and will always remain perma-gobsmacked at how they changed our whole outlook on music who, at least secretly, wish that they'd be regarded like The Beatles -- revolutionaries who not only changed pop music forever (Cardiacs have already done that), but who influenced everybody in creation. Or barring that -- at least Magma -- a band who created their own genre with dozens of bands who play it.

But I'm tellin' ya, boys 'n' girls, the third option ain't so bad. Cardiacs, like Holdsworth and Beefheart, are the rare artists who simply cannot be imitated. I'll take that in a heartbeat.
There's a few odd time signatures but it's not odd time signature music.

This is an unproductive line of reasoning, eadric, because you can never talk about these things in absolute terms. You mean compared to Stravinsky and Bartok, of course not. To avant-prog and tech metal, perhaps not in many cases. But compared to old-school progrock Cardiacs are way more metrically advanced, and more importantly, compared to their direct ska / Pixies milieu, Cardiacs are Stravinsky and Bartok. Rolled into one. Math ska ???

Seriously, The Special Garage Concerts is as mathy as it gets. Ask Bob Leith.
There's bits of musical interplay without being that complicated.

Goodness, have you ever tried to diagram the repeat structure of Buds And Spawn? -- and that tune in spirit is an otherwise slammin' rock number. You always have to take the spirit of the tunes into account. The opening guitar and first verse of Bellyeye fool you into thinking that this is going to be the best party rock song EVAR, that is, until you hit all the key changes in the chorus and then the two different middle 8s in different meters. Even their simpler tunes in one time signature like Arnaud and Come Back Clammy Lammy (in 5/4) have modulations and arrangement shifts. Cardiacs are way more complex structurally than they "need" to be.
I can't think of many 'weird' chords, it's strikingly straightforward in that sense.

My friend, you are simply objectively wrong. I can name dozens of extremely weird chords which defy the mode they appear in: the middle sections of A Horse's Tail and The Duck ..., the "crawling is my world" section of Dog Like Sparky, the horrifying middle section vocal tritone alteration in Manhoo, the tritone-centered cluster that abruptly ends the harpsichord solo in Odd Even, the fist-on-the-keys piano clusters in the middle of Hope Day, the enormous string synth "ugly dog, HIDE!" cluster at the end of the chorus of Goodbye Grace ... shall I go on?

In fact, I think weird chords are more characteristic of Cardiacs than weird time siggies.
Although I'd argue the later stuff is generally 'simpler' than the earlier (it'd have been interesting to see if having KT around reversed that), there's a consistent Cardiacs sound that didn't become too predictable.

Kavus wasn't around for much of the writing (except Ditzy Scene and maybe Faster Than Snakes if memory serves), but he was around for The Special Garage Concerts, and I'd be curious to know how involved he was in the arrangement process, as Jon Poole was during Sing to God. I think the earliest Cardiacs may be the most metrically advanced, but Tim grew by leaps and bounds harmonically by the time of Heaven Born onward. I don't consider any of those three discs to be simplified because their arrangement strategy had to change as a four-piece. The key / section changes and chorus of Bodysbad (in 19/4), the many metrical shifts in the verse of Cry Wet Smile Dry and harmonic shifts in the chorus, the spidery, demented steam calliope tuned percussion at the beginning of Get That Evil Mud Out of Your Soul, the beautifully subtle meter shifts in the lovely Wind and Rains is Cold, the main riff of Will Bleed Amen that I still haven't been able to count, not to mention all the changes throughout, the demented whole-tone Southern rock meets Relayer Yes of Junior is a Jitterbug, not to mention the deliciously sinuous undulations of its extended electronic outchorus -- these are not the works of a man interested in "simplifying" his music ...
So direct influences... I can't think of many, to be honest. There's bands like umm Ring? Blossom? where they sound like they were listening pretty closely, but I'm struggling to think of anyone big. Suggestions?

Not big, maybe (not yet, anyway), but our very own Sterbus seems to be demonstrating a way to write extremely Tim-styled music (albeit more of the side projects than Cardiacs) without directly ripping him off. You can check out his new tune on Cardiacs Alike forum.

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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby Sterbus » Fri Oct 04, 2013 17:03

Yes, as soon as I heard Cardiacs songs - late 2006, age 29 - I realized there was an entirely different way to write songs and use chords... but ALWAYS to serve the song, absolutely. After a few listens you can almost everytime sing a Tim tune like it was a stadium chorus or a child lullaby (that's why I think the chorus of Big Ship would work great in a football game :) ) .That's why I can "get" every Tim song, while I still have problems with some by XTC or Mike Keneally (other two geniuses that know how to combine notes in a chord but that maybe like themselves too much)

Maybe this is another reason why Tim often said "they are all tunes" ... taking everything to a really super-easy level, I could say Tim use those chords because he loves them, he loves how they sound, he loves how his melodies cross with the progressions, and he knows they are something new, and never used before... (not forgetting that interview where he says that he often makes up riff and stuff in his mind and only later look for chords, otherwise he would use always the same - see below)

And yes, I must admit that many songs I wrote in the last years tried to catch that light of genius... always failing, but also always reaching something that was new before, one more step...
I'm not a self-conscious stealer, but sometimes I reckon I often absorb musical things, a bit like Leonard Zelig in the Woody Allen movie... I can't help it!!

DaN: So how and when do you come up with all this incredible music? Is all jammin' in the rehearsal room or does the music in your head keep you awake at night?

Tim: You have to think it up and then try and figure out the best way of doing it. If I just pick up a guitar and start trying to write a song, I instantly start playing the same 2 chords I always go for and then everything sounds the same. The only way to do it is to be nowhere near an instrument and just try to think it up that way...


http://www.thecorroseum.com/features/daa/cardiacs.htm
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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby schlep » Fri Oct 04, 2013 17:27

Sterbus wrote:Yes, as soon as I heard Cardiacs songs - late 2006, age 29 - I realized there was an entirely different way to write songs and use chords... but ALWAYS to serve the song, absolutely. After a few listens you can almost everytime sing a Tim tune like it was a stadium chorus or a child lullaby (that's why I think the chorus of Big Ship would work great in a football game :) ) .That's why I can "get" every Tim song, while I still have problems with some by XTC or Mike Keneally (other two geniuses that know how to combine notes in a chord but that maybe like themselves too much)

Maybe this is another reason why Tim often said "they are all tunes" ... taking everything to a really super-easy level, I could say Tim use those chords because he loves them, he loves how they sound, he loves how his melodies cross with the progressions, and he knows they are something new, and never used before... (not forgetting that interview where he says that he often makes up riff and stuff in his mind and only later look for chords, otherwise he would use always the same - see below)

And yes, I must admit that many songs I wrote in the last years tried to catch that light of genius... always failing, but also always reaching something that was new before, one more step...
I'm not a self-conscious stealer, but sometimes I reckon I often absorb musical things, a bit like Leonard Zelig in the Woody Allen movie... I can't help it!!

DaN: So how and when do you come up with all this incredible music? Is all jammin' in the rehearsal room or does the music in your head keep you awake at night?

Tim: You have to think it up and then try and figure out the best way of doing it. If I just pick up a guitar and start trying to write a song, I instantly start playing the same 2 chords I always go for and then everything sounds the same. The only way to do it is to be nowhere near an instrument and just try to think it up that way...


http://www.thecorroseum.com/features/daa/cardiacs.htm
It's a state of mind :)

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Here I'll lay some quasi-mystical shit on you all! I was going to cite this interview, but too lazy to look it up! Also something Kavus once said, about Tim's ability with songs and words, to create things right out of the subconscious, a la David Lynch, roughly translated but unfiltered. That's why his every utterance, who is him, kiss the big ugly shark - becomes a catchphrase among the faithful. It comes from somewhere we all dimly recognize, and love. It's not like other bands, other music.
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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby Snardbafulator » Sun Oct 06, 2013 17:26

Sterbus wrote:Yes, as soon as I heard Cardiacs songs - late 2006, age 29 - I realized there was an entirely different way to write songs and use chords... but ALWAYS to serve the song, absolutely.

Well I know what you mean, Lele; I certainly feel that all Cardiacs songs are integrated, all parts serving the whole. But I'm coming from a prog perspective that values eclecticism. From a purely pop perspective, that may not be true. I mean, what do we make of the middle parts of Mare's Nest? It starts out as this transcendentally catchy pop tune and then runs straight into Victorian music hall as interpreted by Zappa. Or the middle section of Manhoo which Tim himself said in the interview "ran off the rails" and edited it out for the single version? Even supporters in the press talk about Cardiacs songs being "bolted together" and delight when the galvanic flashes in Tim's laboratory bring the creature to life. Tim has "ruined" many a pure pop masterpiece in this way, and the examples are far too numerous to begin to list.
After a few listens you can almost everytime sing a Tim tune like it was a stadium chorus or a child lullaby (that's why I think the chorus of Big Ship would work great in a football game :) )

Absolutely! This is the key element that makes Cardiacs Cardiacs, and unites twiddlolators like myself with Pixies fans. I have a friend (the same one who thinks Cardiacs are "too zany") who says that Tim doesn't write verses -- everything's a chorus. And indeed, there are two huge choruses in Buds And Spawn. The chorus of Big Ship should be sung at a high mass in church, let alone a football stadium :shock: Good gods, I'm playing A Balloon For Bertie's Party and we go from The Who into math ska, sympho prog, drops into child singsong, then a chorus of Sympho From Hell (you know the part I'm talking about!) and a tutti statement of the final theme, into a truncated recap that collapses into free improvisation to have the singsong theme, now developed, emerge delicately from the wreckage on guitar, glock and Tim's wounded voice.

And the whole bloody dog's dinner of it gets instantly stuck in your head :?: :? ::!: ::D
That's why I can "get" every Tim song, while I still have problems with some by XTC or Mike Keneally (other two geniuses that know how to combine notes in a chord but that maybe like themselves too much)

I know exactly what you mean, Lele (I'll bet you translated a common Italian expression :o ), but I dunno if being too full of themselves is why Andy Partridge or Mike Keneally necessarily choose to express themselves the way they do. After all, nobody in the music world likes themselves more than Madonna, and nobody has ever accused her music of being too obscure!
Maybe this is another reason why Tim often said "they are all tunes" ... taking everything to a really super-easy level, I could say Tim use those chords because he loves them, he loves how they sound, he loves how his melodies cross with the progressions, and he knows they are something new, and never used before... (not forgetting that interview where he says that he often makes up riff and stuff in his mind and only later look for chords, otherwise he would use always the same.

That was a very insightful interview, but it's a shame that nearly everybody who rises to the level in music journalism where they can interview even quasi-"famous" musicians like Tim knows virtually nothing about the nuts and bolts of music or worse, simply doesn't care. I would have loved to have seen an interviewer delve into Tim's early influences and ask him why, e.g., he felt compelled to write math ska at a time in Britain when odd meter was being rejected on a molecular level as a sign of pretentiousness. Tim, after all, isn't a pretentious art-school progrock muso. He has enough theory to know what he's doing (and write it down in conventional notation), but he's obviously self-taught. What was it about odd meter that made him concentrate so much on it? Where did he get the idea it would be cool to have so many chords move out of the scales they imply that it would amount to changing keys every bar?

Inquiring (and incurably twiddly) minds want to know!
And yes, I must admit that many songs I wrote in the last years tried to catch that light of genius... always failing, but also always reaching something that was new before, one more step...
I'm not a self-conscious stealer, but sometimes I reckon I often absorb musical things, a bit like Leonard Zelig in the Woody Allen movie... I can't help it!!

This song is for you, then (and for Tim):

I Will Be Absorbed, by Egg (1970)

Half of the time I spend thinking alone
When I'm working out songs or just lying in the sun
The magical sound that I long to express
Always just out of reach of my groping hands

Like the wanton Muse
Beckoning to me
Vanishes before
I can see her face

How many times has a transient dawn's
beauty faded away before you understand
And a woman whose smile is a lingering song
Brings tears to your eyes though you don't know why

Like a fragrant light
moves before your eyes
A million miles away
Never to return

("neurotic" 13/8 instrumental section)

Wafting across from my childhood
Hazy thoughts and sensations
These must hold the key to my life

I always find those indefinite things
If I manage to touch them they turn into stone
And the quality that kept me following them
Is only a sound that I knew all the time

If I ever find
What I'm looking for
I will be absorbed
And never write again

--Hugo Martin "Mont" Montgomery-Campbell

Bear in mind that Tim and Mark Cawthra were listening heavily to this as teenagers.
It's a state of mind :)

Indeed.

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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby Sterbus » Mon Oct 07, 2013 01:04

I got that Egg album, Bob ! :D
But thank you cause I did'nt know the lyrics... :wink:

Yes "liking themselves too much" is a translation from a common italian expression, when you say about someone that "si piace troppo".... but you did understand what I meant...

I'm alright with your friend when he says Tim write only choruses... take Dog-like Sparky... it has a clear verse, but then 4 or 5 different choruses !!!

And about the odd-meters, I think that the fact he was so young when he started writing music like that it's an important factor... when you're 15, 16, you want to have fun, you want to do jokes, you want to smile and laugh, even for silly things... that's why some musical ideas he putted in his earlier songs looks to me like some instant gags... like you are sitting on a chair, and then someone behind you misteriously takes out the chair and you fall :D this happens when you add a bar, or if, like in Visiting Hours, or in the middle section of Hope Day, you suddenly shift to a totally other meter, really like it was cut-and-pasted... it's meant to surprise you, like "hey, you was thinking I was about to go right, but I went left, haha" (post-solo live version of RES too)

When you're so young you don't think about what's better for your career, you can still CHOOSE what you want to play and how you want to feel happy with it...

Another opinion I have is that his music is never lazy; take Come Back Clammy Lammy or Joining the Plankton, they could have been rock standards even in a single key, but he decides to change key for every verse cause he knows they sound good !!! basically everytime there's a solo he goes down a semitone (Arnald, that I totally stealed on my Gay Cruise, sorry Tim :) ) or goes somewhere else, cause he knows the effect on his and your mind....

Or Fast Robert on the Marenest, there is this keyboard drone that goes on and on, and when your mind has reached that modal area the song starts in another key... (like in Sleep all eyes open)

Most songwriters don't care about those details only because of laziness I think...
Take Buds and spawn... you add those extra bars in that verses not only because you can, but because the song improves this way!!
Zappa was another master in doing this... (just take the verses and the choruses of Carolina Hardcore Ecstasy, done different everytime)

W Tim forever !!
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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby Snardbafulator » Mon Oct 07, 2013 05:56

Sterbus wrote:I got that Egg album, Bob ! :D
But thank you cause I did'nt know the lyrics... :wink:

I quoted all the lyrics because I thought they were absolutely on-point with what you just said about your own writing, and also to address schlep's point from Kavus that Tim manages to pull things directly out of the (collective) unconscious that we all can instantly relate to, like the "hazy thoughts and sensations" that "waft across from ... childhood" Mont believes hold the key to his life. Also remember that only a little later, Mark Cawthra begged for an audition in National Health to fill the drum kit. Dave Stewart told him he was too young ::cry: Ballsy kid 8)
Yes "liking themselves too much" is a translation from a common italian expression, when you say about someone that "si piace troppo".... but you did understand what I meant...

I did indeed. That's why I kidded you about Madonna instead of pursuing the point :wink:
I'm alright with your friend when he says Tim write only choruses... take Dog-like Sparky... it has a clear verse, but then 4 or 5 different choruses !!!

That's Cardiacs. They're without question the most "anthemic" band that ever existed :D
And about the odd-meters, I think that the fact he was so young when he started writing music like that it's an important factor... when you're 15, 16, you want to have fun, you want to do jokes, you want to smile and laugh, even for silly things... that's why some musical ideas he putted in his earlier songs looks to me like some instant gags... like you are sitting on a chair, and then someone behind you misteriously takes out the chair and you fall :D this happens when you add a bar, or if, like in Visiting Hours, or in the middle section of Hope Day, you suddenly shift to a totally other meter, really like it was cut-and-pasted... it's meant to surprise you, like "hey, you was thinking I was about to go right, but I went left, haha" (post-solo live version of RES too)

That's a really perceptive point, Lele. I had never considered that angle, but it makes perfect sense doesn't it. RES is very much like having your seat yanked in a game of musical chairs ::lol: (I'm listening to the song Nivryam right now. Damn, that melody is killer ...) Visiting Hours is a great example. That first riff is just swaggering "classic rock" heaven ... and then SLAM! into this Mary Had a Little Lamb-like three-note stupidmelody, full tutti. WT holy F??? The very next section illustrates what Tim said in the interview, because it starts with those two chords he always grabs, just a power-chord I-VII, but by the time he's sung the first line, it's morphed into a twisted 9-chord totally original Tim-verse, replete with break, and it's rondo form back into Stupidville and the second time through, we get, in a slower tempo, one of those utterly transcendent set of Tim chords (the second time through the lyrics are "turning back the pages of my new diary"), that even fuzzed out the wazoo you can tell are just magical even if you can't tell what the notes are, followed by -- and I swear, the Queen needs to knight the guy or at least award him an MBE for writing ska -- the music of reactionary British youth -- in 11/8. Then it's "and around we go" back through the rondo to wind up at the world's greatest three-part sympho riff, structurally a natural minor sea shanty, which oozes its ethnic origins at least as pungently as Arne's Rule, Britannia. A little riff that gets Tim "in the mood" :mrgreen:

This is a Frankensong that, on so many levels, shouldn't work at all. It's also a masterpiece.
When you're so young you don't think about what's better for your career, you can still CHOOSE what you want to play and how you want to feel happy with it...

And it's remarkable that, at age 45, Tim chose for the Garage Concert not to "clean up" any of those old tunes given what he had learned in the interim about songwriting, but to keep them just as goofy and tricky and experimental as when they were first composed in the late 70s.

The interview was also really sad in retrospect, because just at that time, right before the release of Guns, Tim was pretty content at that moment in his life. Without being a hipster and scoffing at fame (which would of course be a pose; who, honestly, grinding it out all those years would reject fame?), he was philosophical about the benefits of having a small but devoted cult following and his own label, because of the freedom it allowed him to do just what he wanted. Sure it sucks to be broke half the time, but he found ways to deal with that by producing and helping out with other projects. He said he wouldn't trade that for a major-label harness -- although of course if a major offered him money and full control he'd jump at it. Which is sort of part of the point I tried to make to schlep in the other thread.
Another opinion I have is that his music is never lazy; take Come Back Clammy Lammy or Joining the Plankton, they could have been rock standards even in a single key, but he decides to change key for every verse cause he knows they sound good !!! basically everytime there's a solo he goes down a semitone (Arnald, that I totally stealed on my Gay Cruise, sorry Tim :) ) or goes somewhere else, cause he knows the effect on his and your mind....

Actually, Lele, the modulations were required in Joining the Plankton, because otherwise it'd be Louie Louie and as Zappa would be the first to tell you, you can't do Louie Louie entirely straight 8) Come Back Clammy Lammy and Arnaud I totally agree with you, though.
Or Fast Robert on the Marenest, there is this keyboard drone that goes on and on, and when your mind has reached that modal area the song starts in another key... (like in Sleep all eyes open)

Yep.
Most songwriters don't care about those details only because of laziness I think...
Take Buds and spawn... you add those extra bars in that verses not only because you can, but because the song improves this way!!
Zappa was another master in doing this... (just take the verses and the choruses of Carolina Hardcore Ecstasy, done different everytime)

Absolutely.
W Tim forever !!

All of us, Cardiac brother.

Bob
Deconstructing conventional wisdom since the birth of punk

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Sterbus
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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby Sterbus » Mon Oct 07, 2013 15:17

:D 8)
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Sterbus
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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby Sterbus » Tue Oct 08, 2013 14:58

And also, the big answer that all Tim magnus opera gives to those who asks "why?" is "why not?".
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CaseyChristopher
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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby CaseyChristopher » Wed Mar 04, 2015 02:24

There was once a band known as Silverchair. They did post nirvana angst rage sabbath slash punk rock. Later I think Daniel Johns discovered Cardiacs.

He did a band called the dissassociatives.

I discovered them on a youtube clip live show on Denton.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MW6irmaVQpo

Cardiacs influence abound though vocally johns is very different.

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Re: Where we talk about Bands That Are Influenced By Cardiac

Postby drterror666 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:31

Haven't we already got a thread dedicated to this?
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