Guns

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Snardbafulator
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Re: Re:

Postby Snardbafulator » Sat May 24, 2014 02:39

psparky27 wrote:Maybe his language was not that evocative because he did not find it unearthly ? I am not saying they are mutually exclusive just that I would find it hard to be evocative if reviewing a new disney film.They may just not be my bag baby !

Well yeah, that's why I phrased it as a wish. He's entitled to his own reaction. I just found it frustrating because he seemed to know what was going on; he got the semitone shifts, he recognized that there were key changes and not just chord changes. He just didn't put those technical aspects together to describe a feel -- which is the criticism that a lot of us who love technically describing music get from people. But yeah ... that's what he got out of it.

As for Disney being evocative, hey, Disney/Pixar's Wall-E is an incredibly evocative movie.
As is this track to me to be honest. I wish he had been sent a much better track. 8 tops.

I love Jitterbug to be sure, but not as much as I love Winds and Rains which is one of my all-time favorite Cardiacs tunes.

He would have had a stronger reaction to Signs, I think -- another incredible tune.

Bob
Deconstructing conventional wisdom since the birth of punk

psparky27

Re: Re:

Postby psparky27 » Sat May 24, 2014 02:56

Snardbafulator wrote:
psparky27 wrote:Maybe his language was not that evocative because he did not find it unearthly ? I am not saying they are mutually exclusive just that I would find it hard to be evocative if reviewing a new disney film.They may just not be my bag baby !

Well yeah, that's why I phrased it as a wish. He's entitled to his own reaction. I just found it frustrating because he seemed to know what was going on; he got the semitone shifts, he recognized that there were key changes and not just chord changes. He just didn't put those technical aspects together to describe a feel -- which is the criticism that a lot of us who love technically describing music get from people. But yeah ... that's what he got out of it.

As for Disney being evocative, hey, Disney/Pixar's Wall-E is an incredibly evocative movie.
As is this track to me to be honest. I wish he had been sent a much better track. 8 tops.

I love Jitterbug to be sure, but not as much as I love Winds and Rains which is one of my all-time favorite Cardiacs tunes.

He would have had a stronger reaction to Signs, I think -- another incredible tune.

Bob


That's why I said disney not Pixer ;) (that may include the new stars wars films ...time will tell ). Up is even more evocative than Wall-E and that is saying a lot considering it didn't have advantage words !

Signs would have been a better choice but there is not one single track that compares to anything on OLAITS but hey I respect that it is all totally subjective. It's just nice that people enjoy a band in many facets.

I suppose it is a testiment to the fact that the only album I havent bought is Guns. I own it digitally and still listen to it a fair bit but even now cant actually buy the cd! I hoped that like Heaven and to a lesser degree STG, that it would evoke what I love about cardiacs :( I remember seeing a lot of the gigs when they was a power 4 and struggling with listening to the newer stuff. Then at one gig (think was new cross ..with Poisened electric head) really started to enjoy the newer stuff (although it was a few years old at that point) .

I also remember getting STG the day it come out as I was playing football. I brought it down to show my brother and It' is still very vivid. STG still feels like their newest album to me dispite guns and Ditzy..... hmmm makes you think.
Last edited by psparky27 on Sat May 24, 2014 17:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby dogsetc. » Sat May 24, 2014 12:11

I wonder if his live listening collaborator Ryan is our ryan..? Mind you if he was a friend he'd probably have had Cardiacs pummelled into him already. :)

He knows more about music technically than i do, which i think is why i enjoyed it especially as a commentary—another voice and another language. And i like the form of improvised response that it involves, he doesn't know what's about to happen next so he's very much in-the-moment, as it were.

It's an amazing 'song', in two very distinct halves. In the context of Guns as a whole it's a strong 9 from me.

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Snardbafulator
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Re:

Postby Snardbafulator » Sat May 24, 2014 23:18

dogsetc. wrote:He knows more about music technically than i do, which i think is why i enjoyed it especially as a commentary—another voice and another language. And i like the form of improvised response that it involves, he doesn't know what's about to happen next so he's very much in-the-moment, as it were.

Yes, very much so, I thought. It was delightful to see the little smiles and changes of expression as his expectations kept getting defeated each time he thought he had something pegged. That aspect I enjoyed tremendously and again credit him for being so open-minded (and to Cardiacs). I was just hoping he had a stronger reaction to the second part, which is one of the stranger things Tim's ever written. He didn't really convey a sense of that strangeness.
It's an amazing 'song', in two very distinct halves. In the context of Guns as a whole it's a strong 9 from me.

There are a few tunes on Guns I like a little better as I've said, but it's one of the most peculiar exercises in genre I can think of. All through the album, Tim has this truly bizarre Americana fetish (and trust me, as a Yank, the only "America" he evokes is the one in his singular imagination), even more pronouncedly on Sleep All Eyes Open. "And if the skeeters don't him then the gators all will." At first, the general feel is transatlantic psychedelia, but it keeps head-butting into these breaks that vaguely suggest late-70s Yes at their most peculiar.

Oh, and the lyrics of the second half he was so frustrated at not catching:

All good news for now
Rods make buildings in the sand pit
Fiona kissed my desk
Me I just stay out the way
Old ounce weights all blown upside down
Air, light, and labour saving devices
All sun skim her I don't want to go home
Drag back, lighting up time
Thin yellow on the cotton white
And the beautiful strangers stripes were green
And make her full of secrets
And sounded like her name
And sounded like her hair
Which I tried to smell but made a funny face instead
Lie for the beads, they are not for me
Hide them in a match box
Made all special with white cotton wool
Keep the ones that click on teeth
Hand me back the ones that won't
Hand me back the rest with the box

I love you


I have no words for how gobsmacking that is ...

Bob
Deconstructing conventional wisdom since the birth of punk

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ryan
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Re:

Postby ryan » Tue May 27, 2014 18:01

dogsetc. wrote:I wonder if his live listening collaborator Ryan is our ryan..? Mind you if he was a friend he'd probably have had Cardiacs pummelled into him already. :)


He is not your ryan, fwiw.
I would be surprised if many of my friends weren't at least aware of Cardiacs for sure :)

I thought it was interesting seeing someone hear Cardiacs for the first time, watching him try and work it out and react immediately. Made me smile.

psparky27

Re: Re:

Postby psparky27 » Tue May 27, 2014 18:02

ryan wrote:
dogsetc. wrote:I wonder if his live listening collaborator Ryan is our ryan..? Mind you if he was a friend he'd probably have had Cardiacs pummelled into him already. :)


He is not your ryan, fwiw.
I would be surprised if many of my friends weren't at least aware of Cardiacs for sure :)

I thought it was interesting seeing someone hear Cardiacs for the first time, watching him try and work it out and react immediately. Made me smile.


You can just imagine this other Ryan sitting there thinking hmmm what song really is going to throw my mate ! I think he succeeded!

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Postby dogsetc. » Tue May 27, 2014 23:12

Snardbafulator wrote:There are a few tunes on Guns I like a little better as I've said, but it's one of the most peculiar exercises in genre I can think of. All through the album, Tim has this truly bizarre Americana fetish (and trust me, as a Yank, the only "America" he evokes is the one in his singular imagination), even more pronouncedly on Sleep All Eyes Open. "And if the skeeters don't him then the gators all will." At first, the general feel is transatlantic psychedelia, but it keeps head-butting into these breaks that vaguely suggest late-70s Yes at their most peculiar.


I've never read those lyrics before, the second half, utterly baffling; as is the exercise you attempt to describe. Quite well as it happens. The way Cardiacs play with genre is particularly unique, especially since and including Sing to God the subject matter might actually come from somewhere tangible. Outer Space in Apollo Number something. As Dann Chinn Misfit City nicely stabs at it yesterday:

...unusual heartbreaks, the trenches of the Somme, the world-views of dogs and children, football sirens, even being shat on by a bird.


So Guns is the album of the film, Charles Laughton's, with Will Hay.
Ditzy Scene still sounds like a western.
Pony. Where is that place...?

...

Oh, pardon, ryan.

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Re: Guns

Postby Snardbafulator » Sat May 31, 2014 15:20

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Re: Guns

Postby ryan » Mon Jun 02, 2014 16:10

Jon Poole had something interesting to say about Guns in Record Collector:

Q: If you could re-visit any of your albums, what would you change?

A: With extreme respect to Cardiacs, I'd probably resequence Guns, remix Cry Wet Smile Dry, and add two unfinished outtakes, Silvery and Shiprot, which were to end up on Cardiacs album that never was, LSD


Jons most recent take on Silvery is here, fwiw: http://randomjonpoole.bandcamp.com/trac ... silver-sky
There's at least one other recording Jons made and released, but I can't find it to listen too. I'm sure we're all well aware of various Cardiacs versions though.

LSD always struck me as quite an un-Cardiacs title, but I suppose that's another thread.

psparky27

Re: Guns

Postby psparky27 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 16:39

ryan wrote:Jon Poole had something interesting to say about Guns in Record Collector:

Q: If you could re-visit any of your albums, what would you change?

A: With extreme respect to Cardiacs, I'd probably resequence Guns, remix Cry Wet Smile Dry, and add two unfinished outtakes, Silvery and Shiprot, which were to end up on Cardiacs album that never was, LSD


Jons most recent take on Silvery is here, fwiw: http://randomjonpoole.bandcamp.com/trac ... silver-sky
There's at least one other recording Jons made and released, but I can't find it to listen too. I'm sure we're all well aware of various Cardiacs versions though.

LSD always struck me as quite an un-Cardiacs title, but I suppose that's another thread.


I would say guns and STG are both un-cardiacs like names :D

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Re: Guns

Postby ryan » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:27

yeah, i suppose so. i'm removed from the context of release, so i've always just accepted them. good point.

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Re: Guns

Postby psparky27 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:35

ryan wrote:yeah, i suppose so. i'm removed from the context of release, so i've always just accepted them. good point.


I was thinking about this . The four previous albums to the ones above all had "and" in them and that to me makes a cardiac sounding name :?:

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Re: Guns

Postby Mr. Minnow » Fri Jun 20, 2014 20:20

Jon Poole's comment on resequencing Guns is interesting. I've always found the Jitterbug coda to be hugely disruptive and detrimental to the album's flow, but I tried listening to Guns with Jitterbug programmed to play last, and I found that to be a big improvement. I don't think I'm ever going to love the Jitterbug coda, but I found it much more tolerable as a meditative outro to the whole album, and the album as a whole flows far better with the tracks in that order. Similarly, I like the way Wireless closes the first Sing To God album, but I'd find the fairly abstract outro a real pain in the arse if that song were stuck between, say, Fiery Gun Hand and Insect Hooves On Lassie.

I've also found, somewhat weirdly, that Guns sounds a lot better if I whack the volume up a fair bit higher than the usual level at which I listen to most music. I'd read a number of reviews on a classical website mentioning that certain CDs produced by the Naxos label have a production that makes them sound poor at low volume levels, but things seem to suddenly "snap into place" when the volume is turned up. I wondered what effect this would have on Guns, and it did indeed help, especially on Signs and Will Bleed Amen. I know Guns was rightly described as a victim of the loudness wars by Bob, so it seems completely counter-intuitive to think that increasing the volume would help, but for whatever reason that seems to be the case. Certain details in the music that got lost at the lower volume are more apparent at the higher volume, even though in theory the loudness wars problem should mean they still get drowned out. The only problem is that listening at the higher volume means I can't play it unless I'm alone in the house, as it would drive anyone else up the wall. Bugger!

I found that listening in this way makes Guns much more enjoyable. It's still my least favourite Cardiacs album, and I still think it sounds like a Cardiacs/Spratleys Japs hybrid rather than sounding fully like a Cardiacs album. That Spratleys influence no doubt explains why I think certain key characteristics of Cardiacs' sound seem to be somewhat reined in compared to the other albums (though I've seen other reviews and comments on Guns that say much the same thing, and in the context of a positive overall view of the album, so I'm not alone in thinking that). Nevertheless, if taken on its own terms, it's still a better album than I gave it credit for by quite a distance, so if I wouldn't completely withdraw my previous criticisms, I would tone them down quite considerably.